That said, I spent most of my life studying the Scripture. So when someone comments of this blog and says they are a Christian then I try to engage them from that perspective. Grace calls herself Christian, yet when forced to own up to what the Bible says, she tends to make an excuse or explain things away. The Bible is not as mysterious as Grace would like everyone to believe. Evidently she thinks it is real clear on Jesus……..yet so murky and mysterious on everything else. So, she is a literalist when it comes to Jesus and a, I am not sure what, on everything else. I have a hard time saying that she is a Christian,if the word Christian has any meaning at all. Of course, it really doesn’t matter to me. If she is happy I am happy.

It matters not, from my perspective what she does or does not believe. I have come to the conclusion that most Christians have a pick and choose belief system. That’s why it is almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion. A Christianity without the Bible is no Christianity at all.

Bruce

I think that Bruce and I probably have fairly similar beliefs, although he describes himself as “agnostic”, while I go with a “deist” label. However, from where I’m coming from, we’re not looking at “black or white”. Rather the opposite. Everything is “grey”, and that is exactly why I can’t describe myself as “Christian”. I don’t know a lot of things, but I think the difference might be that I don’t care.

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe about people of different faiths? Do you accept that they are finding God without Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is a necessary part of it? Or, is Christianity just one path that some people take?

Perhaps my expression “God with skin on,” was an unfortunate analogy.

You see, this is partly due to my upbringing as a child, and my life experiences, Bruce. My mind naturally runs to shades of gray, and paradox. I love mystery. To me, this makes the Christian faith seem more real, like it’s something that we couldn’t have made up. And, I am very emotive, feeling/intuition oriented.

I really don’t know what I precisely believe concerning all the dynamics of election, and what it means that God is sovereign, how that plays out. I”m of the mind that if even the most orthodox Christians have disagreed about some of these matters through the centuries, why suppose we will come to a definitive answer. It seems ok to me to not completely know, to agree to disagree, and from my perspective as a Christian believer, to “trust God.”

So, you see, it’s that we are wired differently. You are very rational, analytical, sharp as a tack. You don’t see in shades of gray. It’s either this, or that.

But, hey, there is truth, and a strength in every perspective, Bruce. I appreciate your challenges, keeping me on my toes. And, I appreciate you. Care for you as a friend, Bruce.

Thanks for letting me hang around, despite your frustration.

Surely you realize we can not discuss anything as long as you continue to do this. Maybe others can do this with you, but I can’t, and I won’t. Such an endeavor goes against my sensibilities and causes frustration.

You are certainly free to comment BUT I am not going to engage you any further. No need to apologize. You have not offended me or caused any problem. I simply can not interact with you productively.

Bruce

Bruce

Just makes me mad at the family because you know, it’s always this way. Conservatives make messes that we clean up.

You have no idea how frustrating! This is the girl who told me a while back that she didn’t “believe in facts”. Must be nice to live in a place where you can just make stuff up and have it be so.

I tell this story not to necessarily pick on this unfortunate girl, but to demonstrate the damage done by the whole philosophy we see coming out of the extreme religious and political right wing. The wing that’s taking over, by the way. This is the end result in downplaying centuries of scientific exploration and empiricism. This is the result in all the derogatory comments about “intellectuals”. This is what happens when people just refuse to believe that there is any starting point to discuss what might be difficult to discuss and they can’t handle any contradiction.

This is how people like Sara Palin can make the most outrageous statements, which have not a breath of truth in them, and feel no embarrassment. It’s why people can accept the lies without questioning.

And yes, those damn books! I was brought up in church, but was always a reader. I loved history from the time I was a small child. Therefore, even before I reached adulthood, I knew that what they were teaching us in church didn’t square historically. I also knew that all the ministers, in all the churches, were well aware of these facts, and I couldn’t get past the notion that they were deliberately keeping truths away from the congregation.

I didn’t read the comment as I wasn’t here again until this morning, so I missed it.

In retrospect, out of respect for you, I should not have asked the question here. I should keep my interaction with Grace limited to my own blog.

I’m sorry for any trouble this has caused you.

How is it, exactly, that the nonbelievers are doing a better job of following Jesus’ example than the people who claim to worship him? (Sorry, rhetorical question – and I don’t mean to paint all Christians with the same brush, either. It’s just… ngyargh! That’s so completely infuriating.)

Good on you for stepping up, though.

I’m reading your post and my heart is clapping. I mean, I understand that you are frustrated and at the end and ready to grab her little face in your hands and tell her all sorts of things, BUT–

the tables have turned here. Do you realize how many kids/adults came into our lives as christians, were taken in, fed a load of garbage about jesus taking away their problems, and drawn into the net just because they’d been down on their luck for a minute? Here you are, able to “nurse” a mental/emotional “baby” to life… convert her, if you will. Deconvert her… show her her own inconsistencies, and her bible’s and her god’s. You sound like someone who can take quite a load of crap if necessary to get to the good stuff.

I was homeschooled through highschool, then went to a fundy college. Real life smarted, then my colors started to run just because life didn’t support what I’d been told was truth. (And I was a reader! Damn homeschooling!!)

I can’t do this any more. Sorry. Feel free to comment. Maybe others will attempt to engage you.

I wish you well.

Bruce

We are the hands, and feet of God in the world, His ambassadors, God with skin on to each other. I can’t answer why the kingdom doesn’t come in all it’s fullness, yesterday, where He will wipe away every tear from our eyes.. Bruce. No one but God knows this.

Bruce, I”m viewing the destruction of the ancient Caananites, and the Genesis flood as two seperate events. May have misunderstood the question, then.

I feel Bruce, that I have to give this disclaimer in our discussion, that I don’t speak for all Christians, or even for my church. You see, TEC, is this incredibly huge tent. Right now in this country the thirty nine articles are included in the Book of Common Prayer as an historical document. But, they are not binding on the belief system of the priests. We have clergy, and folks in the congregation who are everything from Calvinists to Anglo-Catholics, and then, of course, there’s Bishop Spong.

For me, orthodoxy is defined by the Nicene Creed of the church. I would consider this an essential statement of Christian faith.

Bruce, right now, I’m home from work, with the intestinal flu, and feeling fairly miserable.

I’ll try to get back, and share about Hell later in the day if I bounce back. Yikes!

Bruce

Bruce

Remember the old song Thank God I am Free?

Bruce

Bruce

The essence of her comment was……..God is already in you.

It really does seem to me that being fully human, and growing in God, is also tied to human freedom. Would you want to live in a world where people were like mindless robots, zombies, kind of like Stepford wives? It seems to me that the reality of agape love is also linked to this freedom to choose, and grow, a freedom which can also lead ultimately to great evil.

Grace, God is either in control of he is not. Either he is sovereign or he is not. Either he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient or he is not. Either salvation is the work of God from start to finish or it is not. Orthodoxy DEMANDS you affirm these beliefs. The 39 articles of your Church declares that these teachings are true. SO, if God is all these things then I hold God accountable for everything since he is responsible for everything.

I first learned of the possibility of this flood in Genesis being a local Mesopotamian phenomena from the scholar Betrand Ramm many years ago.. I don’t know, Bruce, if this theory is correct, but it certainly bears thinking about. Here’s a brief overview.

It is Bernard Ramm. Used his book in college 34 years ago.

You didn’t answer my questions about this “localized flood.” If it was local, and it took so long to happen why did Noah need to build an Ark? Why couldn’t Noah and his family just move? The whole story of Noah and the Ark seems quite irrational if it was a localized flood”

By your statement concerning, “God wiping off everyone on the face of the earth who was not part of the chosen people,” are you referring to the ancient Canaanites, Bruce? My understanding is that this was an exceedingly wicked race of people who sacrificed their own children in the fire to Molech, along with other abominable practices. Their whole aim was to annhiliate the ancient Hebrews, and with them the Messianic line through which redeemption was to come to the
whole earth. They refused to repent through many years.

You are kidding right? The millions upon millions that were drowned in the flood were all people that were offering their children to Molech? That only 8 people out of the millions on earth were not? Since Noah’s flood happened before ANY of the Scriptures were written, before Abraham was chosen by God, how could the murder of the entire human race be related to redemption? You call them Hebrews. They weren’t Hebrews in the time of Noah. Indisputable fact from the Bible. God killed millions of innocent people including babies, unborn babies, and children in the flood.

Bruce, if God is the author of all life, is there ever a time, when it is right, and merciful for Him to take that life away? What if this is the only way to save the innocent/
Should we not trust His mercy, and justice?

The way to save innocent life is for God to not allow them to be born. He does have that power. What kind of God allows children to be born just so they will be burnt to death in some cult ritual or be drowned in a flood a few days ,weeks, months or years after they were born? But then, this is the God that created part of the human race knowing they would be damned for all eternity. (the doctrine of election, the doctrine of your Episcopal Church)

I understand the point you are making, but I don’t see this in the same way, or draw the same correlation between all Muslims, and this Biblical account.

My analogy is spot on. I am sorry you can’t see it……..but it is still correct.

Bruce

PS. I don’t believe in the Christian God so the comments above are me arguing as a Christian not what I actually believe.